Talk:Lebanon

Coat of Arms 2

The Coat of arms of Lebanon page has been developed enough, so i guess it should be okay putting the coat of arms on this page. 185.76.178.100 (talk) 10:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

or putting the cedar emblem next to the flag, exactly like the France page. The French emblem is used in a de facto capacity, so is the Lebanese emblem and coat of arms. 178.135.8.101 (talk) 16:59, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

In support of this. WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me 12:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Same here, in support of the cedar tree. It's a very distinct image and only associated with Lebanon Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

It hasn't really changed very much. It seems that there is still no specific source stating that this symbol is the country's coat of arms. It would be good to hear from participants in the earlier discussion @Largoplazo; @Mir Novov; @Beshogur; @Mnmazur; @Koavf; @LaundryPizza03. Furius (talk) 08:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if it's the coat of arms or not. Every country has a symbol next to their flag except for Lebanon. France has "Emblem", I suggest the cedar tree be put back as "Emblem" if the only problem is that it's not the coat of arms. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 08:50, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Other stuff exists is not an argument. Beshogur (talk) 10:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

If France doesn't actually have an emblem, then that article should also not pretend that it does. If every other country shows some symbol because every other country has an official coat of arms or emblem, while Lebanon doesn't, then this article should not. The cedar is obviously a common motif used in representations of Lebanon (such as the flag), but is it, itself, considered an emblem? If not, then we shouldn't present it as such. Largoplazo (talk) 10:59, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

It's literally called Cedrus libani in scientific notation, meaning cedar of Lebanon. And Wikipedia has a line of code in the infobox for symbols that are not the coat of arms for this very situation:

symbol_type = emblem, seal, etc (if not a coat of arms)

Also, CIA says that "the green cedar tree is the symbol of Lebanon and represents eternity, steadiness, happiness, and prosperity" https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/lebanon/flag Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Also mentioned in the Bible many times notably during the building of Solomon's temple in 1 Kings 5:

"“So give orders that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me. My men will work with yours, and I will pay you for your men whatever wages you set. You know that we have no one so skilled in felling timber as the Sidonians.”"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%205-6&version=NIV

And in Psalms:

"The trees of the Lord are well watered, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+104&version=NIV Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:34, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm taking issue with your first point. I'm going to suppose you don't think that any of Camellia sinensis, Eriocheir sinensis, Streptococcus sinensis, or Clonorchis sinensis is an emblem of China, or that they are, respectively, that country's official plant, crustacean, bacterium, or parasite. Largoplazo (talk) 11:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Are those symbols on the Chinese flag? Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Or coins?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3898.html Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Or paper bills?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_pound#/media/File:Billet_de_1000_livres_libanaises.jpg Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

As I explicitly said, I wasn't addressing any of those points, only the one about the taxonomic nomenclature. Which was an invalid point, as I illustrated. Largoplazo (talk) 12:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

You won't address the point as it stands in context because you don't have an argument against it other than semantics. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

"Semantics"? You raised the point about the taxonomic name. If it was just "semantics", then why did you raise it?

As for why I didn't address any of your other points: There is no principle that "When somebody makes several points, thou shalt not address any of those points unless thou addressest all of those points." You made one point that was bad outright that I chose to address. Your other points aren't relevant to my comment on that point; I am not obliged to address the other points; and you appear to have chosen to harangue me on all the points I didn't address to avoid acknowledging my remark about that one point. Largoplazo (talk) 12:07, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

It was raised in context along with other points you intentionally chose not to see. You didn't answer the question either, so I'll ask again, are the Chinese bugs and other creatures on the Chinese flag?

I'll wait. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 00:11, 16 October 2023 (UTC):::::::::::::I saw all your points. But it seems that my point about how choosing to address one of your points doesn't obligate me to address any of the others didn't register with you. So stop talking to me as though I'm under such an obligation. By the way, 7 billion other people in the world also haven't addressed all your points. Why don't you also yell at them? Largoplazo (talk) 02:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah stop spamming stuff. Beshogur (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Spamming links and references? That's just called research. How about let the conversation happen instead of trying to shut everything down. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The taxonomic nomenclature is irrelevant. The Bible is very irrelevant, since the Republic of Lebanon didn't exist then. Coins and money are also irrelevant, since many countries have symbols on their coinage without that being their coat of arms. (In my home country of New Zealand, for example, the silver fern is a very widely used national symbol in private and public contexts - including the passport! - but all of these usages are informal; it is not the coat of arms / official national symbol. The official coat of arms which appears in the infobox of WP's article on New Zealand is, in fact, very rarely seen or used).

The CIA world factbook is explaining why the symbol appears on the flag, it does not establish that it is an official symbol in other contexts. So far, all we've had are examples of it being used in particular instances (extrapolating from those to the claim that the cedar is the official coat of arms/symbol/emblem of Lebanon is WP:OR). If the cedar (separate from the flag) is an official symbol/emblem/coat of arms of Lebanon, it should be very easy to point to WP:RS that explicitly say that it is an official symbol/emblem/coat of arms of Lebanon. It is striking that none of the proponents of this addition have been able to cite such a source. Furius (talk) 14:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources are given. Calling them irrelevant doesn't make them irrelevant. You have to make an argument as to why that is the case other than "New Zealand has an official coat of arms and that's why the silver fern isn't displayed". As far as I'm concerned, the people opposing this are being exceptionally unreasonable. The symbol of the green cedar tree is literally everywhere throughout the country, all over the flag, the currency, the websites, things that are mentioned about the country now and throughout history - in ancient texts and modern texts. How much more do you need? Do you need the Lebanese government to explicitly state that the cedar tree is a symbol of Lebanon? Is that the only criteria? Is there no case for an obvious de facto symbol that is used throughout the world for the country?Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Here's another source, Lebanon's country profile at the Library of Congress:

https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/frd/frdcstdy/le/lebanoncountryst00coll/lebanoncountryst00coll.pdf

"On the cover: Representing Lebanon's tragic civil strife, a

cedar, the national symbol, is shown split in two." Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 03:58, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh now it's split in two now? Do we have a real source? Preferably Libanese. Beshogur (talk) 04:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Just yet another example. Here's one more in the national anthem:

"Her glory – her cedar, her symbol for eternity."

What's your argument again? The cedar can't be the symbol of the country because it is only on the flag, the currency, in the national anthem, on every government symbol, it's scientific name, in the Bible, in basically every article mentioning Lebanon..... but it's not explicitly stated word-for-word how you want it to be? Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 09:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

No it's not. Full of original research. Beshogur (talk) 10:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

According to who? Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:14, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

According to wp:or. Beshogur (talk) 15:31, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Prove it. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 09:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Largoplazo I found some sources proving that it is indeed the unofficial coat of arms of Lebanon. It is mentioned and illustrated in page 64 of the book “Guide to the flags of the world” [1]. It is also illustrated on page 62 of “The world of flags: a pictorial history” [2]. 71.239.86.150 (talk) 14:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Edits by user:Smint34

There seems to be an edit war over this. I think I have some sympathy with Smint34's edit but it should be agreed here. Pinging User:Duvasee. DeCausa (talk) 21:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Lebanon was home to Phoenicia?

Phoenicia predates Lebanon, so if Wikipedia is going to use this non-encyclopedic metaphor "home", ancient Phoenicia is now "home" to what is currently being called "Lebanon". Plus the source give doesn't even say these words, and the source is also not encyclopedic, even if it is somehow associated with Princeton. Describing an ancient trade as coming from the "innards" of snails is one example of the very casual and chatty tone of the source and so I doubt it's use for Wikipedia in any way, for factual reasons, for prioritization of topics (meaning elevating that which is entertaining over that which is objectively significant), and in general a sloppy, half-assed column that would be more appropriately found in a news magazine like "People", and not being used as source material for an encyclopedia. Meaning that, I read the Wikipedia Article, and I still don't know the history of the areas of the Middle East that is now known as "Lebanon", no matter what words it might be currently using, I don't trust them, or the Article.

2603:8081:3A00:30DF:A5AB:9BE9:BAED:623B (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Pedantic nonsense. Ancient Phoenicia and modern Lebanon closely overlap. Phoenician purple dye was indeed made from the innards of murex sea snails. These are both facts. A place can be "home to" something older than itself (eg most museums are home to old artefacts). Colloquial language (which "innards" isn't, really...) or an interest in entertainment doesn't necessarily make a source unreliable. Furius (talk) 08:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

To be fair "home to Phoenicia" sounds odd and doesn't really make sense. Looking back it originally said "home to Phoenician civilization" which is a more usual phrase. I've revised it here. DeCausa (talk) 08:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Why the Religion Index or bar has been removed?

The current wiki page on Religion has been tampered & Changed & the Religion bar has been removed from the page completely !!! No, proper way to go through the demographics of Lebanon properly!!! Skalvanov (talk) 18:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2024

I am requesting to change the word Israel to be change to Palestine what has happeded lately I would appreciate if you acknowledge change the words Israel to Palestine that is all I ask Nenikijhk (talk) 19:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. There are 65 occurrences of "israel" in this article, which one(s) are you requesting be changed? the 1948 Arab–Israeli War to the 1948 Arab-Palestine War? Cannolis (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2024

Lebanon is a Mediterranean country. It should be listed as one, not as a country in west Asia. It hinders from its Mediterranean history and culture. TheLebanesePython (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Lebanon is in West Asia, in the same way that Morocco is in North Africa ("Morocco ... is a country in the Maghreb region of North Africa") and Italy is in Europe ("Italy ... is a country in Southern and Western Europe"). The very second sentence of the article says that it (like Morocco and Italy) is on the Mediterranean. The rest of the article goes into detail about its history and culture. I think you're trying to make the first sentence accomplish more than it needs to. Largoplazo (talk) 02:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Proximity of Cyprus to Lebanon

It seems lazy and mis-informative to say in the lead that "Cyprus lies a short distance away from [Lebanon's] coastline". Cyprus is approximately 100 miles offshore of Lebanon. Changing the quoted phrase to "Cyprus lies 100 miles offshore of Lebanon" uses fewer words and is precise. This is important if you live in Cyprus or are planning to visit Cyprus for tourism, which contributes 10 percent of its GDP. I wouldn't be keen on taking a holiday somewhere "a short distance away" from Lebanon any time soon, but I'd be happy to holiday on an island one hundred miles away. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, yet its articles are littered with phraseology like this. Isn't this a clear example of WP:Weaselwords? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 23:26, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

How exactly are you quantifying the distance between these two countries, and from where are we measuring? 100 miles (on the dot, rounded) is not as precise as one clearly presumes, so can you please go and fulfil your obligation to the wikipedia project and it's readership and provide and accurate measurement from a reputable reliable source to adhere resolutely to WP PRECISE. It may be necessary to note from where the distance is measured, for example it could be shorter or longer from Tyre than Beirut.

As nobody has had any qualms about this superflous tidbit factoid prior to this, your presumably good faith contribution to this talk page can otherwise be ignored unless anybody has any objections. Sincerely JJNito197 (talk) 02:37, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

How did I quantify the distance? I measured it on a map. And the shortest distance I measure is 100.67 miles. My source - a map. Any map. You can use Google Maps if you like. It gives the same result as the nautical chart I used. "Superflous [sic] tidbit factoid"? You are hilarious. Imagine an encyclopaedia specifying a distance! How superfluous! And that distance is between Cape Greco Penninsula (Cyprus) and Selaata (Lebanon). Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 14:40, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, you measured it on a map, figuring out yourself which pair of points in the respective countries are closer than any other pair of points in the respective countries. That makes it WP:OR.

Conversely, JJNito197, "a short distance away from" is too vague to be informative, whereas "approximately 100 miles", while still needing to be properly sourced, is at least informative. So given a citationless choice between the two, the latter makes more sense. Largoplazo (talk) 14:59, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

The article says that Lebanon is bordered by Syria to the north and east, and by Israel to the south. It's not referenced. How are these things known? Could it also be "original research"? Perhaps someone who looked at a map and assumed these things?

N.B My sloppy phrase "approximately 100 miles" has been updated to "precisely 100.67 miles, from Cape Greco Peninsula to an outcrop near to Selaata, Lebanon". The reference for this is Google Maps. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 15:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Anything that makes the lead longer than what is necessary would be difficult to follow for readability purposes per DUE WEIGHT. If we see the Israel page it specifies 'bordered by the Mediterranean Sea to the west'. In this case it would make more sense to keep this style, but include Cyprus, as in 'whilst Cyprus lies west across the Mediterranean sea'. This was also the standard on this article for many years. Whether or not this will perturb you from holidaying in Lebanon 'anytime soon' is irrelevant and we should not change the opening sentence to accommodate you. We could add a note to the sentence to elucidate further for those that want the distance quantified. Largoplazo if you have any better ways at structuring this please let us know. JJNito197 (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned in my original message, my proposed edit makes the lead shorter. Not longer.

Kindly stop being rude and disparaging in your replies, and from attributing faux-perturbation to me. I suggested an edit to sloppy encyclopaedic text. I did not say I was perturbed or "deeply concerned". Nor did I express the opinion that there are people out there who will "want specific mileage". But this is an encyclopaedia and people use the resource for facts, details and information. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 17:04, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

One cannot assume that this project can cover everything and anything, despite your admiration and aspiration to do so. You already laid out your reasoning for the proposal, albeit in jest, I hope. JJNito197 (talk) 17:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

In jest? Do you follow current affairs? In the last 48 hours many countries including US, the UK, Australia, Sweden, France, Italy, Canada, South Korea, Saudi Arabia and Jordan have urged their citizens to leave Lebanon at the earliest possible opportunity; as the fear of an all-out war with Israel escalates.

So no. No jest. Anyone considering travelling to Cyprus would, I am sure, much prefer to know it is 100 miles away from Lebanon - not a short distance away.

Then there's the other reason - this is an encyclopaedia and it deals in facts, not WP:Weaslewords Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 17:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, the distance of the countries will remain the same in the foreseeable future, so specifying whether it is 100 miles or 10 miles as a pseudo-respite to accomodate or dissuade potential holiday goers is redundant and not helpful, considering that Lebanon exists as an entity separate from the machinations of world politics foremostly. One needs to understand that the tumultuous situation is expected to be exacerbated congruently, be it across the Mediterranean or on the immediate border. So if you are looking at a holiday anytime soon, I would imagine the best place to visit is ones own backyard. Kind regards JJNito197 (talk) 17:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Dispute resolution - please advise on most suitable arbitration process

Dear @JJNito197 I have asked for the following edit to be made to this article. In the format 'change X to Y', here is my request for you once more: X - "Cyprus lies a short distance away from the country's coastline" Y - "Cyprus lies approximately 100 miles from the country's coastline" using this link as a citation (or linking to any other publicly available measure such as Google Maps) https://ibb.co/VBKD0Pw which shows the exact shortest distance from coast to coast to be approximately 100.46 miles depending upon tides etc. My rationale is that the words "lies a short distance away from" are WP:Weaselwords and not worthy of an encyclopaedia of Wikipedia's prestige. You have refused this edit request several times and been deliberately obtuse, disparaging, belligerent and obfuscatory. You have also locked down this article. Can you advise me please, as a senior editor of the project, how I should go about escalating my complaint about your behaviour, and how I should seek arbitration from more competent editors? Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 22:26, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2024

Personally as a Lebanese person I can attest that Lebanese culture is one of the ancient Mediterranean cultures of the world. It is favorable if Lebanon is not introduced as a “ country in West Asia “ rather a “ a Mediterranean country in the Levant “. I believe this is much more suitable.

I hope you accept my request and blessings 🙏🏼 LebaneseCanan (talk) 04:51, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: It already says it's in the Levant in the first sentence and that it's on the Mediterranean in the second. It's a description of the physical location of the country, not a characterization of its culture. Largoplazo (talk) 10:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Grouping of settlements

Might I suggest someone that knows the country that on a settlement's page, to start adding a "municipality" section in its infobox to show not just the governorate and district in which it is located, but the actual local government that it is subordinate, too? I think the Dahieh article - in both English and French - is a good example of this which doesn't really give a sense of what municipalities - or which municipalities if it crosses borders - it belongs to. It's basically written as if it's a municipality/local government, itself, though it also is heavily implied that it's made up of multiple cities.

Also, too, I've noticed that on most District articles they have a list of "cities and villages" or "cities and towns" section, and I imagine that these are simply settlements regardless of local government, but that's never made clear. Criticalthinker (talk) 09:10, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait, now I'm seeing shapefiles that have a third administrative level below "Districts" called "sub-districts" which appear to be smaller than the municipalities? I know all of these may not be functional, but what's going on? Someone please make sense of this and bring sources. Just as an example, which municipalities make up "Dahieh"? Criticalthinker (talk) 10:57, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Anyone? Criticalthinker (talk) 03:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Link to Arafat page

Arafat is mentioned without linking to his page or explaining who he was. Domwsr (talk) 07:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I've taken care of it! Largoplazo (talk) 10:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Very fast, thanks. Typo in Yassir/Yasser though? Domwsr (talk) 14:56, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, ha, you're right! Fixed. Largoplazo (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Lebanon (southern) vs Israel 104.138.152.29 (talk) 21:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Leading description

I think the lead should change from West Asia to Middle East. "West Asia" is barely a term that is only used by a few people, mostly by Geography teachers, Lebanon is always referred to as the core countries of the Middle East. ShawarmaFan07 (talk) 20:35, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Ceasefire

The recent ceasefire fire between Israel and Hezbollah should be added to the last paragraph of the History section. Fyukfy5 (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

In the second paragraph, where it mentions “The 11th century saw the establishment of Crusader states, which fell to the Ayyubids and the Mamluks, and eventually the Ottomans”, after the word Ottomans, please add that it was part of the region known as Ottoman Syria. https://guides.library.illinois.edu/c.php?g=348323&p=2347109 2600:100C:A218:9A7B:E879:81B4:EADF:A345 (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. I think that's too much detail for a lead section. But if other editors disagree with me I'm happy for the change Ultraodan (talk) 11:31, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Claims about refugee camps not supported by citation

Perhaps these claims should not remain without citation.

"Many Islamist and Palestinian militias operate in refugee camps because of an agreement that prevents the Lebanese Army from entering them. Many people wanted by the Lebanese government are believed to have taken refuge in the camp as a result of the lack of Lebanese authority." Lonsuderforpresident (talk) 01:17, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 December 2024

SUMMARY:

Proposal to add to the end of the last paragraph in the section "Military"

CURRENT TEXT:

Hezbollah effectively controls large portions of southern Lebanon, and has greater military strength than the Lebanese armed forces. The government of Lebanon has been unable or unwilling to prevent Hezbollah attacks on Israel, and violent conflict between Israel and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Many Islamist and Palestinian militias operate in refugee camps because of an agreement that prevents the Lebanese Army from entering them. Many people wanted by the Lebanese government are believed to have taken refuge in the camp as a result of the lack of Lebanese authority.

PROPOSED TEXT:

Hezbollah effectively controls large portions of southern Lebanon, and has greater military strength than the Lebanese armed forces. The government of Lebanon has been unable or unwilling to prevent Hezbollah attacks on Israel, and violent conflict between Israel and Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Many Islamist and Palestinian militias operate in refugee camps because of an agreement that prevents the Lebanese Army from entering them. Many people wanted by the Lebanese government are believed to have taken refuge in the camp as a result of the lack of Lebanese authority. Lonsuderforpresident (talk) 00:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)